Tomson Highway In Conversation

AUDIO	VIDEO	
	TEXT ON SCREEN: A conversation with Tomson Highway June 2021	
SPEAKER 1: So this is the 30th anniversary of the Royal Alexandra National Arts Center's theater production of Dry Lips Oughta Move to Kapuskasing. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Mhm. 		
SPEAKER 1: 1991. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah. 		
SPEAKER 1: [INAUDIBLE] 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE] 1981, I remember [? specifically ?] it has a bittersweet memory for me because my brother passed away the year before. 		
SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: He worked on the original production as the choreographer at [INAUDIBLE]. And then he got sick and passed away October of 1990. So in 1991, the following year, is when all this happened. 		
And unfortunately, he wasn't a part of it. But he certainly was much [INAUDIBLE] his contribution to the development of the piece was much appreciated and beautifully remembered. Yeah, the dance sequences were his, you know, originally. Yeah, [INAUDIBLE]. 		
SPEAKER 1: And he also was involved with the creation of the Res Sisters, the choreography for-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE], yes, he was, yeah. You know what? The funny thing-- I don't know if you remember the production itself that we had [? the Royal ?] [INAUDIBLE]. 		
But the Doris Linklater played Nanabush in the evenings. And the two matinees were-- she was replaced by Gloria Eshkibok, who was the most hysterical woman alive on the planet. Anyway, and the way Rene had choreographed it, she's a stripper, right? But in a strip scene. 		
And the boys are sitting at the table having drinking, just having a wonderful time as boys will do. And the way Rene had choreographed the sequence, she's wearing this outrageous strippers outfit, of course, with [INAUDIBLE] and the whole thing-- man. The tassel idea was his, Rene's, idea. 		
And so at one point, he has his-- with Doris, it was relatively easy for the-- for that scene. There's five or six of them sitting around the table. 		
And they had to-- they put up their hands like this, the right hand. And the point is for the stripper to sit-- use it as a chair, five hands. And then the music is banging away, and everyone's just rocking away. And then they have-- the boys have to lift her like this as part of the choreography, right? And they have to make it look effortless. So with Doris, it was difficult [INAUDIBLE]. 		
SPEAKER 1: [INAUDIBLE] 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Very hard time. They have a hard time doing it. They also had an even harder time making it look easy, right? Because it wasn't easy at all. 		
Oh, that was hysterical. There were so many funny movements-- movement-- movement-- funny incidents throughout the production of that piece because it's such an outrageous piece. Yeah, there's great stories about Gloria and about the two pieces because we had such a fabulous time with them. 		
SPEAKER 1: So-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Magical experiences. 		
SPEAKER 1: [INAUDIBLE] that's what I want to ask you about. It seemed like really a really special time for the creation of these works-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Mhm. 		
SPEAKER 1: --and the community you built around them because it used a lot of the same people. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Mhm. Well, yeah. Well, it wasn't-- I wasn't alone. I didn't do it by myself. 		
I did it with the support and the collaboration of many, many brilliant people. It was one of those situations where the right people came together at the right time at the right place, you know, which is frequently the case with good things that happen-- 		
SPEAKER 1: Yes. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: --and bad things, I suppose. But we don't think about the bad things. We just think about the good things. 		
And just the right combination of people came together. And there they were. And a large part, of course, we're all responsible for creating this stuff, collaboration. 		
But a major part of that, of course, was Larry Lewis, the director, who passed away in 19-- I remember he passed away the-- my partner [INAUDIBLE] passing. I said, must have been around this time, June the Seventh. Really, if you look back to the records of the night Mike Harris got elected premier-- 		
SPEAKER 1: Oh boy. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: --that night. And the election was announced. He died at almost-- I think the election must have given him a heart attack. 		
SPEAKER 1: You talk about all the good times and the interesting people that you worked with. And you also talked about the tears. And it seems to me that both The Res Sisters and Dry Lips combined both. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: They did. They really did. 		
SPEAKER 1: There's pain, but there is great joy. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah. Well, that's why-- It turns out that it's my specialty. I write comedy, yes. 		
It comes very naturally to me to write comedy. I like being funny. I like making people laugh, 		
But I also have a great talent for tragedy and-- so I'm told. And I remember the precise moment in Dry Lips especially in Dry Lips Oughta Move to Kapuskasing, that one, where we made people laugh and cry at the very same time where the tears of sorrow and the tears and joy collided. And that's the moment when Gary Farmer is screaming from the center of the stage over the dead body of Simon Starblanket and telling God to just come down and go what-- bleep himself. 		
And then the light comes up above, and there she is as a woman, first of all, with a beard, bare breasted on top of that, and sitting on the toilet reading a newspaper, you know? Simply at that precise moment, people were bawling and then laughing hysterically at the same time. I remember, and that was a classic moment. 		
SPEAKER 1: Is it fair to say that that actually is part of Cree culture, being-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: No, it's very unfair of you to say that. Just kidding. I like how you cast it. 		
Is it fair? It's like, you're so polite. Can I do this? But of course it is. 		
Yes, it is. You know, I mean, I just finished a project. Oh my God, I just finished the magnum opus of my life. It's [INAUDIBLE] we're sending it off to the printers tomorrow morning, big book. 		
SPEAKER 1: This is your memoirs coming out in September. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE] yep. And how do you know? 		
SPEAKER 1: Oh, I know certain things. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: That's true. It's true. You're the kind of guy who knows all kinds of interesting things. I forget about that. 		
Anyway, so-- and that's what I said. I said-- I was working with a fabulous editor. We just talked this morning. 		
And off she went with the manuscript. God we worked hard at it. And again, there's another example of a fabulous collaboration. 		
That book is not the result just of me. It's also the result of her work. She was brilliant-- Martha Kanya-Forstner. 		
Anyway, and she at Doubleday Books. Anyway, she-- I said to her, because she hadn't worked with me before, that a reserve is like toontown. It's a toontown. When you step on a reserve-- your wife's from a reserve, right? 		
SPEAKER 1: Mhm. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah, that's what I said to somebody-- [INAUDIBLE] [? Lake. ?] Anyway. I said reserve. As soon as you step onto reserve land, you have-- of course, you've been on a reserve, right? 		
SPEAKER 1: Mhm. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: The rules change. There's a certain irreality about life on the reserve. It's like twice as funny. 		
You start laughing a lot. But there's also very tragic at the same time. Tragic things happen on reserves. 		
And sometimes, they happen cheek by jowl. And my reserve up in northern Manitoba is certainly like that. Every reserve I've ever been to has been like that. 		
You start to laugh more. Just they're silly places. And the language is-- the way the languages are structured as well, they're very clown-like. They're very cartoon-like. 		
Life achieves kind of-- life puts a very clown-like aspect, a cartoon aspect. Things are so silly. People are so silly. 		
The language is so silly. And so that it's-- so I said [INAUDIBLE] after I saw Who Framed Roger Rabbit, the movie that everybody has seen, of course, which is a combination of cartoons and real people interacting, that's what reserve life is like. It's like-- so I started calling, at that point in time reserves cartoon towns. 		
They're toontowns where, for instance-- I'll give you an exact example, classic example. Wiley Coyote, you know, the cartoon character-- how many times have we seen him killed, you know? And [INAUDIBLE] around-- 		
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, can't finish the guy. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: I mean, [INAUDIBLE] it's the funniest thing we've ever seen. We're watching a tragedy where we're laughing. That's toontown, you know? 		
And that's what reserves are like. And so it is fair to say that the character of those pieces and other work of mine has a very cartoon-like character [INAUDIBLE]. But then when you think of it, much of show business has to have that quality. 		
You know, I was thinking-- I got severely criticized one time. God knows everybody has. And said that there's something cartoonish about something that somebody said. 		
And I won't name which critic. I think she's still around. Her first name begins with a K. 		
Anyway-- anyway, and I didn't, of course, react. But I said to myself, but that's the point. I was trying to be cartoon-like. 		
So obviously, she'd never been on a reserve. But then you look at any musical, OK? Chicago-- are those cartoons, or are they not, you know? Velma Kelly, and what's the other one? 		
SPEAKER 1: Velma Kelly and Roxie Hart. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [? That's it. ?] Roxie Hart. [INAUDIBLE] I mean, what real woman is like that, you know, in real life? Any Gilbert and Sullivan opera-- do women Act like that in real life? 		
No, they're cartoons, of course. And that's the point. That's-- show business is about turning life into magic, into cartoon-like magic, you know, to entertain people, to make them laugh. 		
So yes, reserve life is very cartoon-like, and so is my work. And it's because-- actually, I didn't grow up on a reserve. I come from a reserve, but we never lived on it. We had a house there, but we hardly ever spent time there. 		
Way up north of Manitoba, close to [INAUDIBLE], and we were-- and the reason we hardly ever spent time there is we went there for weddings and funerals and Christmas and stuff like that-- special events. But the rest of the time, we always lived in the land. We were caribou hunters. 		
We were fishermen. We were this. We were that. 		
We were always living with nature and were in nature. But I do nominally come from a reserve. I am a status Indian from Brochet, Manitoba, et cetera, all that stuff. 		
So yes, I have a very cartoon-like personality, so I'm told. And I enjoy that. To me, that's a compliment Because I like to laugh. You know, [INAUDIBLE], it's a-- laughing is a survival mechanism. 		
You know, and that's what show business is about is to make people laugh, to make people joyful. And look what happened just now in the pandemic, you know? There was no theater for, what, a year and a half? 		
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, there still isn't here, you know? 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE]. And I'm walking into a situation where I'm glad to be of assistance at theaters where-- that are struggling back to life. It's just happened [INAUDIBLE] at Manitoba Theater Center. And now Stratford is coming up for me, et cetera, et cetera. 		
So lucky to be able to say that. But the thing that people noticed about that absence of theater and culture and music, live music in their lives, is that there was a-- they were getting mentally ill, emotionally ill. The depression and even suicidal thoughts entered many people's minds at some point or other. 		
And that's the role of art. It's a necessary part of life. It keeps our brains and our hearts alive, you know, with joy and beauty. And it would be like having the Earth-- imagine a planet with no trees, you know? 		
It's that kind of thing, that kind of absence, keeping in mind that without trees, we wouldn't even have air to breathe, you know? No chlorophyll. All that stuff-- you know, people forget that this stuff is here for-- it's not here just for decoration. 		
It's here, theater and the arts and music. I miss-- one of my favorite things to do in Europe, and we do a lot-- I still live in Europe part of of the year-- is go to the symphony concerts at the big concert halls and the opera houses, right? Oh my goodness, to watch the best people in the world perform-- and I haven't had that for a year and a half now. 		
We had to flee. We live in Naples these days-- Italy. So last year, a year and a half ago, we had to flee Italy, literally. 		
And so-- and I left behind about four very expensive tickets at the Naples opera house, which is called [INAUDIBLE]. It's the Teatro di San Carlo. It's one of the great opera houses of the world. And I said to him, I said to myself, [INAUDIBLE], we couldn't reimburse. 		
There was no mechanism for that. So I just said-- you couldn't even get into the box because it was closed. So I said to myself, I'm glad. 		
It cost me about $300 equivalent. And I said to myself, I'm glad to be-- it's a point of pride to be able to contribute to an organization, namely the theater, that has given me so much joy over these past number of years and that has given so much joy to people. They deserve this money. 		
It's a gift. Thank you. And I never regretted spending that money, wasting-- to me, it wasn't a waste of money. I never regretted it for a second because it's a fundamental expense. We need to spend that money on these things. And so we just come to an experience of spiritual bankruptcy in that sense, you know? 		
SPEAKER 1: Mhm. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: And it just really goes to show how necessary it is for us to pull ourselves out of that spiritual bankruptcy and bring our brains and our hearts and our emotions back to life. And the other thing is it's like-- and you really notice it in Europe, all the beautiful churches. They're all empty because nobody prays anymore. 		
SPEAKER 1: So that leads me to this question. Do you think we no longer have a mythology? I mean, of course, I'm assuming that, you know, Christianity is a mythology as well. You know-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yes. 		
SPEAKER 1: So-- and I guess now our mythology is, what, the Marvel superheroes? I don't know. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE]. First of all, mythology and theology are intertwined. They serve the same purpose sort of. 		
And the difference in mythology and theology-- and I studied this material for many, many years. I mean, my work, my entire body of work, is so much about that, addressing these questions. The theology is about the study of gods. Mythology is about the study of gods and men, humanity. 		
SPEAKER 1: Mhm. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: So yeah, mythology is about the study of God, divinity, and humanity, whereas theology is about the study of divinity only, eh? And so in order for one to function fully, one has to-- in order for us to be able to pray, to get down on their knees, do this with their hands, make the sign of the cross, and all that other stuff, we had to have a mythology, a theology, that is [INAUDIBLE], eh? We had to have gods that live. 		
And the reason-- and because of this-- what this pandemic has shown us is that we have become so arrogant as a civilization that we no longer need God anymore. We have become God. We can-- science has given us the capacity. 		
Science and technology have given us the capacity to do godlike things, like send messages across entire continents at the snap of a finger. And so at one point in our lives, that mythology was very much alive, and it no longer is. And we, the artists of this generation, are working at putting that mythology-- bringing that mythology back to life. 		
That's our purpose. And so therefore, we have-- we need access to theaters. We need access to concert halls. We need access to [INAUDIBLE], you know? 		
We need access to all these places where people can go and just breathe, you know, and cry and laugh, all these wonderful things. And so the Royal Alex really was a gift from heaven for me to be able to walk in there and put on a show with all my friends and make people laugh, make people cry, and it shocked the living daylights out of certain people. Oh, I love those stories. 		
I mean, you were there. You saw the monitor [INAUDIBLE]. A woman had a heart attack. 		
SPEAKER 1: Well, I-- no, that's not true. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE] that story. 		
SPEAKER 1: You know, but-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Dragged out of the theater with-- she left her shoes behind. [INAUDIBLE] was taken to the washroom. They sprinkled her face with water. 		
This is the story I heard-- sprinkled her face with water and offered to call a taxi, right? And she said, no. I won't-- take me back into that theater, and I want to watch this show to the end, she said. That's the story I heard. [INAUDIBLE]. 		
SPEAKER 1: There's always truth in the stuff, but it-- I don't think it happened quite like that. But yeah, there's-- stuff happens all the time, but especially around Dry Lips. It really was, for many people, you know, who lived in a very-- I don't want to say closed off world but a very isolated world they hadn't thought of life in a reservation and what those people are like, what they have to endure. And it-- this really was a complete shock to some people-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: For some, not all of them. Some people, yeah. 		
SPEAKER 1: Some people just couldn't understand the various layers that the show worked on, you know? 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah, I always read in three layers. I write at the level of divinity, the level of humanity, and the level of nature. And the tripartite-- it's the tripartite kind of storytelling. 		
In order to really fully understand the material, you have to understand what those symbols stand for. You have to understand what Hera-- and the principal female character in play is called Hera, who is a Mother Earth goddess from Greek mythology. And she comes from a period of human history where God, the Christian God, had a wife. 		
And to Christians, the idea of God having a wife is an obscene idea. It's iconoclastic, you know? But there was a point-- and that's the question-- many people have a big question for Christianity. 		
When the Christian God arrived here in 1492, the big question we have for him over the centuries is still, where-- why did you come alone? Where's your wife or your girlfriend? What are you, anyway? What precisely are you? 		
And so [INAUDIBLE] we were posting very tough questions, and a lot of people didn't understand that those questions had to be asked at certain levels versus of our consciousness. So yes, people were shocked. But you have to understand too, at the very same time, the other half of the argument I was thrilled to shreds. 		
SPEAKER 1: Those are all good things. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: I love it because people-- you know, people always warmed me in my memoirs about such and such [INAUDIBLE] a certain topic being touched on in my memoir that's coming out soon. And people will say, oh, it's going to be controversial. [INAUDIBLE] that's their warning. 		
But to me, controversy, like, you know, you're talking money here. You're talking box office sales, right? There's nothing great-- as great as-- that sells like controversy, you know? 		
People should be able to have to fight their way into the theater through crowds of protesters in order to see that show. [INAUDIBLE] they should want to see it. And that's how powerful that statement being made on that stage should be. 		
SPEAKER 1: [INAUDIBLE] opposite would be boredom, not caring at. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah, absolutely. Would be indifferent to it, yeah. 		
SPEAKER 1: Completely indifferent to it. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: No, no-- and it's still causing waves, you know? It's still-- it lives on as a piece of world literature. It's the [INAUDIBLE] they're now-- they've now been absorbed into the world literature. And like, I don't want to brag because I'm not-- I don't like to-- I don't play-- I don't blow my own horn because I don't play horn. 		
I play the piano, OK? I'm a piano player. And-- but it's been-- it's right up there among the gods of the play-writing discipline, you know? [INAUDIBLE]. 		
SPEAKER 1: Just a question because-- how do people in other countries produce the show? Because they obviously can't have indigenous actors play the part. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Oh, yeah. Well, no, they just use-- in Japan, for instance, they use Japanese actors in Tokyo, which is the best production out side of-- 		
SPEAKER 1: No, which-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE] was in Japan, and talking in Japanese with Japanese actors. Loved it. 		
SPEAKER 1: So you-- 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: --loved it. 		
SPEAKER 1: And so this question about cultural appropriation, which sometimes I find is not helpful, certainly doesn't apply because people would miss out on something. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah. Yeah, I don't believe in it either, this cultural-- yeah, I like the way Alexander McCall Smith, the Scottish novelist, said it. He said it best when he said-- because he writes about it. He's a white, straight, heterosexual male living in Scotland. 		
He's Scottish, and he writes about Black people. He writes about a Black woman in Zimbabwe or what is now Zimbabwe. It used to be Rhodesia back in his day, back in the day when this story-- those stories happened. 		
Anyway, he said, I don't believe-- I don't do cultural appropriation. I do cultural admiration. That's how I put it, you know? 		
People love us so much that they want to be us, you know? And that's a compliment. That's what I want. [INAUDIBLE] talk about only so-and-so should play so-and-so. 		
That causes nothing but division and except-- like, exterior-- I don't know. What's the word? Exclusivity, exclusionary, whatever. 		
[INAUDIBLE] and ultimately hatred because it causes hatred. And you don't want to do that. You want to cause love. [INAUDIBLE]. 		
SPEAKER 1: Similar to what you've always done with your work, like in Dry Lips, you know, Greek mythology, Christian mythology, Cree mythology combined into one. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: [INAUDIBLE] absolutely. I love doing that. And I have-- I have exceptional-- I've had exceptional teachers in my time. 		
And I have a wonderful education. And I have a limited amount of time left to live just like you. And I want to maximize [INAUDIBLE], you know? 		
I don't want to be stopped. I don't want to be silenced by political correctness. And I want to. 		
SPEAKER 1: I just have one more question, and that is just if you want to give us some thoughts about reconciliation, especially, you know, now that this, you know, terrible discovery of 215 remains of children have been found. You know, it brings this up again, a very-- not an easy answer to any of this sort of stuff. But what is your take on how reconciliation can happen? 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Well, when the news first broke, I was speechless. I was asked for an interview immediately by the CBC. And I said I have no words for it. 		
Words for this emotion do not exist, so I have nothing to say. Even if I did, how could-- how would I say it? So I refused them very quietly. 		
And they understood. But I can only-- you know, one person-- namely me, for instance-- I can only do so much. You know, I'm here to create beauty. 		
That's my business-- the creation of beauty and the well-being of the human spirit, to consume the health of the human spirit. That's part of my job, a very large part of my job as it is with any artist, is just to continue what I've been doing on all my adult life is creating beautiful art. The more-- like in toontown, the greater the tragedy, the more beautiful the song I have to create. And that's my answer. 		
SPEAKER 1: No, it's remarkable when you think about your parents' life. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah. 		
SPEAKER 1: Very [INAUDIBLE]. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: You'll have to read my book to see all that, that transformation. 		
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. So I only found out about it yesterday. So it was exciting to discover it. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah, it was just beginning to trickle out. 		
SPEAKER 1: And September was what I'm told it will be published. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Seventh and eighth, yeah. 		
SPEAKER 1: OK, well, we have something to look forward to. Anyway, thanks a lot. I hope to talk to you soon. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Yeah, and have a wonderful, wonderful evening. And I certainly am [INAUDIBLE] I have to get on the blower here to send my last note to the publishing house. 		
SPEAKER 1: OK. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: That is-- they gave me a deadline at 5:00, and it'll take about 15 minutes. But still, I want to have it right. 		
SPEAKER 1: OK. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: OK? You have a good day. Thank you so much for interviewing me. Say hi to David, eh? 		
SPEAKER 1: I will. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: And everybody else-- Brian and all that-- 		
SPEAKER 1: I know, yeah. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: Great bunch to people-- and everybody else. And so when you get back to Royal Alex, have you been inside the theater? 		
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I go there once in a while. 		
TOMSON HIGHWAY: I'd like you to kneel down and kiss the floor for me. 		
SPEAKER 1: OK. I will do that.